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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 2:07 pm 
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PaulieP55 wrote:
I have to agree with Joe Catapano. The top quickest guys are racing each other regardless of class. I love to race Joe, Pete McIntosh, Ziggy, regardless of their class. Winning your class and a trophy is great, but aren't we all wishing to be 1st overall?

What this essentially does is make qualifying a mute point on Sunday. I could go out and run a 2:00 lap at Lightning and still start right next to Ziggy who qualified with a 1:10; and in front of all the ST2 guys that ran harder as well. How does that make sense?

One thing I would like to suggest is that there MUST be a minimum speed that a car has to maintain in order to stay on the track. Last year we had car 63G running lap speeds 30 mph avg less than the fastest driver at Thunderbolt. Thats totally unsafe!

Paul Plemenos
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The RD can black flag any car that is not keeping pace and/or is causing a dangerous situation. This is covered in the national CCR.

You should not be racing out of class period. There are no awards for winning the race overall. In fact at nationals they don't even consider them one race. They are merely several races sharing the track space.

In Grand-am do they mix the ST and GT cars for grid?

I don't have a strong feeling one way or another on this but just throwing it out there as devil's advocate.

-mike

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 2:49 pm 
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Two cents:
1.The Grey Car 63 that was in the last race at NJMP TB was off pace and created dangerous situations. What good is having a rule in the CCR about slow pace if it's not enforced.
2. Why no trophies on Sunday's? If we spend a good amount $, time and Risk to race on Sunday, we should receive a trophy wether people stick around at the end of the day or not.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 2:59 pm 
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1) Would have to ask the RD.
2) I believe it is "tradition" that Saturday is considered the "feature" race of the weekend. Also the volunteers are usually busy packing up etc on Sunday so it makes it a bit difficult logistically.

-mike

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 4:39 pm 
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Mike,

Not an apple to apple comparison. There are only 2 classes in Grand-Am. We are running 10 classes in the Thunder Group.

Additionally there is great disparity between the ST and GT classes of Grand Am, so a broken field start makes sense.

Who's faster GTSU or SU? GTS5 or ST1? GTS4 or ST2? GTS3 or ST3? etc.; thats why we mix it up with people outside of our group, because we are wheel to wheel with those other classes of cars. It's good racing.

What happens if I'm the only guy in my class, am I to just go out and log laps? I hope that's not NASA's philosophy. I race in NASA because its fun. Let's keep it fun and safe while also fostering some healthy and friendly competition, whether in, or across classes, that will make us all better drivers, be great fun to participate in and be great fun for people to watch.

As far as the RD having the authority to black flag an off pace car, what exactly is the criteria? Does the CCR spell out a specific rule? If not, then perhaps the powers that be should set it up for our region and make it known prior to each race that if a slow car is not maintaing a minimum speed(time) then they will be black flagged.

Now another topic:

I think we should have drivers and crews outside their cars, at grid, for the national anthem before every race and a command for drivers to start their engines.

I think that their should be recognition of all HPDE drivers that are moved up from one run group to the next. This will give them a great sense of accomplishment and some well deserved recognition! Give them a certificate or something, it will foster a greater sense of loyalty to NASA NE.

Paul Plemenos
55 ST1

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 4:59 pm 
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PaulieP55 wrote:
Mike,

Not an apple to apple comparison. There are only 2 classes in Grand-Am. We are running 10 classes in the Thunder Group.

Additionally there is great disparity between the ST and GT classes of Grand Am, so a broken field start makes sense.

Who's faster GTSU or SU? GTS5 or ST1? GTS4 or ST2? GTS3 or ST3? etc.; thats why we mix it up with people outside of our group, because we are wheel to wheel with those other classes of cars. It's good racing.

What happens if I'm the only guy in my class, am I to just go out and log laps? I hope that's not NASA's philosophy. I race in NASA because its fun. Let's keep it fun and safe while also fostering some healthy and friendly competition, whether in, or across classes, that will make us all better drivers, be great fun to participate in and be great fun for people to watch.

As far as the RD having the authority to black flag an off pace car, what exactly is the criteria? Does the CCR spell out a specific rule? If not, then perhaps the powers that be should set it up for our region and make it known prior to each race that if a slow car is not maintaing a minimum speed(time) then they will be black flagged.

Now another topic:

I think we should have drivers and crews outside their cars, at grid, for the national anthem before every race and a command for drivers to start their engines.

I think that their should be recognition of all HPDE drivers that are moved up from one run group to the next. This will give them a great sense of accomplishment and some well deserved recognition! Give them a certificate or something, it will foster a greater sense of loyalty to NASA NE.

Paul Plemenos
55 ST1


I agree with you on the safety of doing it straight by qualifying times, thats why it's been like that since forever :)

As far as setting a minimum speed, if the RD feels it is unsafe no matter what the speed, they should pull the car, I don't think a specific speed should be set as there are all kinds of factors. It is just part of being the RD.

If you look back about 2 or 3 years I suggested the Anthem be played as well. We did it 1x and no one followed up on it. Perhaps we can get someone to follow up this year on it.

The HPDE stuff is already in the works :)

-mike

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 4:09 am 
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In regards to the starting grid change we will do both style starts to accomodate the majority of racers, some want by class some by time. Someone mention 'accomodating the whining people', is that in reference to the forum whiners or the whiners that talk to nasa at the track? We understand some of you guys want to go for the overall win and some race out of class because no one in class is close and racing is for us to have some fun, we also understand that the majority of cars in class are not top runners and those people are loosing interest running by themselves, gridding by class puts them in the mix with others in thier class at least for a lap or two. 8)

now, should we open the can of worms regarding standing starts again? :lol:

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 3:23 pm 
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There is not a lot of track time for racers at NASA events. We have to find our enjoyment in the short qualifying session and a race. So now if we grid by class, qualifying will in some cases have no impact on starting position or little impact. The competiion at qualifying now ends. Another reason to leave Saturday night. If somebody can't qualify with the other cars in his class he should try some coaching instead of asking for rules changes. I will skip Sunday's, thanks. Thank god for PCA racing.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 8:46 am 
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I can give a great example of how this could get dangerous quickly. Lets say we have someone who is historically fast at the Glen (Example Eric Wong) in a GTS3 car qualify infront of the leaders in ST3, or maybe even ST2 depending on who is running. You are now saying on sunday that you are going to put 15 GTS3 cars in front of 8 ST3 cars because one guy put up a good lap time. What that leaves you with is 14 GTS3 cars (eric will obviously be gone) battling eachother in class and not cognicent of the faster ST cars who are also battling eachother in class. In Grand-AM if an ST car posted the fastest lap time over the GS cars, they would NEVER put the ST field in front of the GS cars. This would create a dangerous situation for both groups. That however, is what we are suggesting to do on Sundays. I dont see that being safe or fun. And like stated above, I race for overall wins as well. Ask any ST or GT racer (in Grand-AM), they are always racing to not only beat their class, but also pushing to win overall (TRG 2002 24 hours of Daytona, quickly followed by a rule change to slow the GT cars down!)

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 5:49 pm 
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IMO, the only way to grid by class, is to have separate green flags for each class or a couple classes at most, so 2-3 waves of cars (which is what the other regions that grid by class do). The example Pete gave is why it wouldn't really work.

That said, the vast majority of drivers aren't going for the overall win, nor do they care about it, so I am all for trying to grid by class, just not in a single wave. If a SM, SE30, or GTS3 gets the overall win in their run group, all that means is there were some bad cars/drivers in the other classes haha.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 5:05 am 
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secu wrote:
IMO, the only way to grid by class, is to have separate green flags for each class or a couple classes at most, so 2-3 waves of cars (which is what the other regions that grid by class do). The example Pete gave is why it wouldn't really work.

That said, the vast majority of drivers aren't going for the overall win, nor do they care about it, so I am all for trying to grid by class, just not in a single wave. If a SM, SE30, or GTS3 gets the overall win in their run group, all that means is there were some bad cars/drivers in the other classes haha.


You are 100% right Sean. The multiple green flag start is the right/safe way to do it, and is how other regions do it. If not you end up with my example which can be a tricky situation.

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