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PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2015 6:38 am 
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TurboShortBus wrote:

When in doubt, ask a regional or national director first, THEN start welding.




It is almost laughable that you think that all of the regional directors would have provided the same answer that was given in that situation, since it is exactly how kbrew8991 describes it, unwritten. What happens if you show up to nationals with written approval from a regional director to do what he did? You get DQ'd or bumped up a class despite the fact?


Two additional attachment points for either two foot-well bars or two bars to the front firewall
(one on each side) may be added without a TT Modification Point assessment.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2015 8:51 am 
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We were/are not all as awesome as Mark. :roll: :lol:

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2012 C6Z06
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2015 9:02 am 
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kbrew8991 wrote:
there's an unwritten rule about how high the top of the forward attachment for foot protection can be - Terry @ Vorshlag got caught out by it being unwritten if you want to pull up his build thread and saga about that.

Unwritten, indeed. :roll:

TurboShortBus wrote:
A brief explanation:

1. Those particular foot-well bars attached at a point that was way too high to provide foot protection (unless the intrusion was coming in above the top of the front tires). I will agree, though, that the rule could have been written a little more clearly.
2. It was determined that those particular foot-well bars performed an additional function, which is not permitted without taking points.
3. The designer, fabricator, and/or installer obviously did not fully read or understand PT/TT classification forms section H.

No, I read the rules, and only made one mistake - the passenger side attachment bars for the NASCAR style door bars on that side.

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I don't agree with this particular rule as written - it encourages people to make one side of a cage less safe than the other - but I did make that mistake... Shame on me.

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Which has since been fixed (above) and that I shared in my build thread, so nobody else made the same mistake. But the main part of that 5-part Mystery Internet Protest protest on the cage I didn't agree with, has to do with our two allowed firewall bracing bars:

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The rule about these bars is clearly written, and it does not necessarily agree with your (or Greg's) assessment:

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There no grey area in the wording there, to me. Its pretty cut and dry: Two bars to the front firewall (one on each side) may be added without a TT Modification Point assessment. Which we did, because these flimsy fiberglass cars have really flimsy fiberglass firewalls. In a crash, this structure needs all the help it can get. Only the outer perimeter of the firewall structure is steel, which is where we landed the bars. Did it look unusual? Sure. Was it done within the wording of the rules? We think so, yes.

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But Greg ruled against us on that, and we had cut those two firewall tubes out as well, unhappily. I sure hope this car never gets in a big enough crash to have needed those firewall braces.

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And yes, we smoothed out the cut tubes, as recommended. We're not a bunch of hacks.

TurboShortBus wrote:
Note that the car owner was afforded a massive courtesy when various points discrepancies (easily found via his widespread internet documentation) were brought to his attention by officials BEFORE the car's first event, and not AT the event, where it would have been disqualified and/or moved up from its intended class of PTC/TTC to PTB/TTB. This allowed changes to be made to the car so that it could compete in PTC/TTC.

Hmm... It is hard to respond to this, because that statement is both misleading and non-factual. I found out about Greg's sudden interest in my C4 during the very first event we attended, which was well before we had built the roll cage. The concerns then were the OEM replacement shocks we were using (off the shelf $80 Bilsteins vs 25 year old out of production Delco-Bilstein factory shocks) as well as the move to the 1996 BTM brakes, which were 13" vs 12" fronts on the 1992-1995 BTM (but these cars are classed as "1992-96 LT1 Corvettes").

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The points free front brake upgrade was clearly legal, as anyone with basic 3rd grade reading comprehension would have learned had they read my extremely detailed build thread. But it pissed somebody off, so they threw paper - in secret.

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This was one of the five points brought up at the Mystery Internet Protest that was filed later that year. I heard grumblings about this pending protest at the March 2015 NASA Texas event we attended, after we had built the roll cage. None of my competitors threw any paper on the car then and we had clearly shared everything for the world to see. We had motor problems at that event that sidelined the car for the rest of the NASA season, but that didn't slow down the Mystery Internet Protester.

That seems to be the rub - sharing our build thread brought undue scrutiny from some Armchair Quarterback, who then wrote a detailed Protest to Greg, in secret, about FIVE issues they noted on my car that were shown in our build thread, only one of which was a real mistake (but as non-competition enhancing as you can get - the door bars). But that's what we do - we share all of our shop builds - in the hope that we reach people who have never thought about racing with NASA, or maybe was inhibited by the costs of a TT build. This was our cheapest TT build to date (other than the GRM $2011 car we built that I ran in TTU a couple of times).

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TurboShortBus wrote:
When in doubt, ask a regional or national director first, THEN start welding. - Mark

You see this remark here? a little snippy, yes? That's a NASA Regional Director being a bit condescending and patronizing. Against someone he knows owns a business in motorsports.

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Just so you know I had TWO different NASA Texas race Directors come by my shop, inspect the cage, and look at the wording in rule 8.3.H before it was final welded. They both missed the passenger side bars (because its illogical, and only applies to TT letter classes), as did I, but both agreed that our forward firewall tubing should be deemed legal with 8.3.H, as the wording was clear in the rule about that.

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We're not just a bunch of yahoos working out of a barn here, we build NASA cages for racers. And Pikes Peak cages, and drag NHRA race cages, SCTA/Bonneville cages. Of course we ALWAYS work with tech inspectors from each racing group and get their blessing before we final weld anything. Which we did here, but that Greg over-ruled based on "that's not what we MEANT for the rule to mean" logic.

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Dave Schotz is pretty much the polar opposite of our Mystery Internet Protester. Dave is an open, honest, and respectful competitor. Dave was also racing in TTC this year (just like Mark) and even building a C4, so we could feasibly meet up at a National event this year. He saw something in the our build thread on corner-carvers that was used against me in his 5 part protest, but that the Protester himself missed (could have been 6!)

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Dave noticed in one of our many pictures we posted that the car had an aftermarket throttle body airfoil. We bought the 24 year old car partially prepped, but I had personally never seen the throttle body with the air intake tube off (my shop manager snapped the pic in question when my techs were working on the car). Yet Dave went out of his way an CALLED ME - a TTC competitor - to let me know that it was a +2 point mod. I had to see for myself, and sure enough - it was in there. We ran the first event with it unknowingly in place (but had the points then for it, so it didn't really mater). This part has since been removed and we shared that openly as well.

That is how you handle these matters, without the Mystery Internet Protest. If someone (like Mark here) wanted to "afford a massive courtesy for various points discrepancies" he could have picked up the phone and talked to me - I'm not that hard to find. Or he could have PM'd me here or on corner-carvers, where he apparently read my build thread. It would have taken him 60 seconds...

Instead, "whoever" protested me kept it all in secret and sent his mega-protest via the internet. And somehow NASA doesn't allow me to know who protested me when done in secret like this - unless maybe they were a Regional Director with more pull than a normal racer? I can't seem to find this Mystery Internet Protest procedure spelled out in the CCR either.

Dozens of people have spoken to me at various events this year and shared their disgust with how this was handled by NASA, so I'm not the only one who thinks this smells funny.

Mark's comments only help prove to me what several people have told me: He is the Mystery Internet Protester, who threw paper on our car from thousands of miles away, and did so in secret.

Please tell me I'm wrong here, Mark. Tell me a Regional Director didn't pull this janky move??

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Terry Fair @ Vorshlag Motorsports


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2015 10:36 am 
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Quote:
Which we did here, but that Greg over-ruled based on "that's not what we MEANT for the rule to mean" logic.

Terry, you should really stop whining on the Internet, it doesn't relay to folks what a great guy you really are or how professional
you are in your builds and with your customers.

We don't debate issues of specific vehicle rules interpretations or protests on the Internet, but I guess I need to correct a few of the incorrect statements you are making here, before I shut this down. I don't see why a simple thread about building a cage needs to come to this. First, NASA was made aware of issues
with your build that you believed were No-Points modifications based on your Internet postings and photos, before a competition. Second, NASA made every effort to assure that you would not show up at an event and be disqualified for these issues that we were made aware of before the event. Third, you would have been disqualified for the passenger side bars alone, and NASA prevented you from that embarrassing situation. Fourth, while I handed down the ruling on the front bars that did not go to the firewall (as the firewall is not metal and cannot be welded to), this issue was evaluated by multiple National NASA Executives who assisted in making the determination. Don't throw quotes to my name for statements that I never made. It was determined that your bars did NOT go to the firewall, not the quote you have above. Fifth, the rules state to ask your Director(s) if there are any questions, not to ask some unnamed race directors that are not your Series Directors. Series Directors make determinations about vehicle compliance. Sixth, did you ever consider that just maybe, that the person who informed NASA of your car's potential issues is someone who works for you (or likes you, or is a customer of yours) and knew of the potential issues, but didn't want to see you get DQ'd, and also didn't want you to go on an Internet rant against them, or fire them, etc... It was not a Series Director who brought this to our attention, but there is no doubt that the Series Director would have found these issues when you brought the car to the track, and you would have been disqualified. So, why don't you stop bashing NASA, me, and our Series Directors, and stop making unfounded accusations, and stop trying to play the victim? It is unbecoming of a professional like yourself.

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Greg Greenbaum
National TT, PT, & ST Director
Nat. Medical Director
greg@nasa-tt.com


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