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PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2016 12:55 pm 
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I posted this question in the HPDE section, but I thought it might be a good idea to post it here also.
I'm going to be doing my first HPDE at Autobahn in July. I'll be driving my 94 Camaro that I've owned for 15 years.
The car has a 4 point roll bar and fixed back racing seat with 5 point harness on the drivers side. The passenger side has a reclining "Cypher racing" seat with the stock seatbelt setup. (passenger airbag is still active)
I have been warned that an instructor may want equal protection on the passenger side.
The Cypher seat has pass-through's for shoulder harness's, but I would have to cut it up for the antisub belt to install a full harness.
One of the options I was looking at was the Schroth 4 point rallye harness with the (ASM) technology for the passenger side.

I'm hoping to hear from people that instruct to get their opinion on this.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2016 2:43 am 
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Hello!

Awesome to hear about your first HPDE event at ABCC.

We use the Club Rules and Regulations (CCR) as the guideline to this question.

Per the CCR for your driver restraints, any harness system must conform to the same rules as a racecars harness, except expiration dates. This includes how the belts are attached to the car (eye bolts, safety wired, correctly threaded, etc).

For the passenger, the Schroth 4-pt are only DOT and FMVSS 209 Approved (but not for specific fitments per the CCRs requirements). Also, worth noting that a off-brand seat of unknown quality/testing may not be the best choice if you're asking for an instructor to ride with you and all the of responsibilities that go along with that.

**if a T-Top F-Body, I would run with those off. Personal experience, the flex in the car can lead to tops popping out mid-corner. You should look into arm restraints. HPDE may not require it...but again its for your safety.**

Ideal state is that you match the seat and harnesses (correctly attached) to the drivers equipment. Not only is it safer, you're also telling the instructor that you value their life as equally as yours :)

Quote:
11.3 Required Safety Equipment - Driver
Disclaimer: Conformance to these regulations is the driver’s responsibility. These regulations do not guarantee
or imply that injuries or death will not occur. If there are any questions or problems with these regulations it is
the reader’s responsibility to contact the NASA office, or a NASA official immediately.
All participants should utilize equipment that meets or exceeds these minimum requirements, while driving on
track (Note- passenger equipment must meet or exceed these minimum requirements; but do not necessarily
have to match the driver’s equipment):
1. Use a proper fitting helmet that meets Snell 1995 (SA1995; M1995) or newer (or equivalent) standards
for cars or motorcycles.
2. The driver and any passenger must utilize modern style stock seatbelts in very good condition, or a DOT
approved restraint system, while operating a vehicle on the track. Lap belts used without any shoulder
restraints are not permitted. Restraint system requirements are listed in Section #11.4.8. The only
four-point belt systems that are allowed for use in HPDE / TT are 1) those that carry an “FIA B-xxx.T/98
certification, or 2) those that carry a label from the belt manufacturer stating that the belts meet Federal
Motor Vehicle Safety Standard (FMVSS) 209 AND that the belts were designated for the specific vehicle
(e.g. “For use only in BMW E36 models”). Such label must be easily visible to the NASA inspector.
Note- four-point belt sets that have a DOT-only certification are not allowed.


11.4.8 Seatbelts and Harnesses
The seatbelts should be in good condition. No damage may be present on the seatbelts and they must be the
factory configuration. Any harness or any restraint system, other than factory stock, shall conform to CCR
section #15.5, in all respects except for the expiration regulations.
Harnesses that are expired for racing may
be used providing that they are in at least very good condition. The use of a lap belt without any shoulder
restraint is not permitted. Passenger seatbelts must meet the same minimum requirements per the CCR as the
driver seatbelts if being used by a passenger. Note-passenger equipment need not match the installed
equipment on the driver’s side. See Section 11.3 for more about four point harnesses. Stock / OEM belts
should not be worn with hard shell, fixed back racing seats. Those seats should have a racing harness.


15.5 Driver restraint system
(See diagram at end of section)
1. All vehicles should have a five (5), six (6), or seven (7) point seat belt system. Arm restraints are
required in open cars and cars with: Open T-tops, Open Targa tops, missing moon/sun roofs, or glass
moon/sun roofs.
2. A five (5) point system consists of: a lap belt, two (2) shoulder belts, and anti-submarine strap.
3. A six (6) point system is recommended for cars where the driver is seated in an upright (to thirty (30)
degrees) or a semi-reclining position. It consists of two (2) anti-submarine belts in addition to lap and
shoulder belts.
4. A seven (7) point system is recommended for seats with more than thirty (30) degrees of incline.
5. The material of all straps should be in new or perfect condition. The buckles should be metal quick
release. There should be a single point of release for all belts.
6. The shoulder harness should be mounted behind the driver and above a line drawn downward from the
shoulder point at an angle of no more than twenty (20) degrees with the horizontal.
7. The seat, seat holes, and attachments to the seat are not permissible “harness guides” for compliance
with the angle requirement. Only specific harness guide bars, or parts of the chassis or the cage are allowed to be used for this purpose. The guide bar, if used, should not present a sharp edge to the belt.
It should provide as much area of support as possible to distribute the load.
8. Only separate shoulder straps are permitted. “H” type belts are allowed. “Y” type belts are not allowed.
Each shoulder strap should have an independent mounting point.
9. All mounting hardware should be SAE grade five (5) or better. Large diameter mounting washers should
be used to spread the load. Bolting through floor panels etc. is not acceptable without required washers.
10. Certain belt sets are made for certain purposes, such as for use with a specific head and neck restraint
device. The driver is responsible for ensuring the use of the proper belt set for his/her given application.
In addition, all belts should meet at least one of the following:
A) SFI Specification 16.1 or 16.5 and shall bear a dated label of no more than two (2) years old. At
least one date label is required on belt sets.
B) A restraint system meeting FIA spec #8853/1985, 8853/98, or D-###.T/98, including amendment
1/92 may be used. FIA certified belts have a label that shows an expiration date. The belts cannot
be used past December 31st of the year shown on the label. At least one date label is required on
belt sets.
11. All drivers should take care to ensure that their belts are properly worn, adjusted, and latched. It is the
driver’s responsibility to assure that harnesses are installed in compliance with manufacturer’s
instructions for the harness as well as their head / neck restraint.
12. Any driver involved in a high impact crash shall send all of their safety belts back to the manufacturer for
inspection, re-webbing if necessary, and re-certification before they may be used again in competition.
Proof of re-certification is the driver’s responsibility.
13. All belts should be threaded in compliance with manufacturer’s instructions. An example of one type of
threading instruction set appears at end of this section.


15.6.21 Seat Back Support
A seatback support must be made to hold the seat from going back in the event of a crash. A plate should be
used to distribute the load. No bolts, corners, or sharp objects should be placed in such a manner that could
lead to a possible puncture of the driver in a high impact crash. Seat back support need not be attached to the
seat itself. Proper design and installation is crucial to safety and it is recommended that the driver employ the
services of a professional race car builder for this, as well as all other vehicle safety items. An exception may
be made for those seats homologated to, and mounted in accordance with, FIA 8855-1999 or 8862-2009
standards. Those seats that qualify for the aforementioned exception must conform to the entire FIA 8855-1999
or 8862-2009 set of regulations, as applicable. This includes a mandatory seat replacement, or use of a seat
back brace, for any seat more than five (5) years old (8855-1999) or more than ten (10) years old (8862-2009).
Please reference the FIA regulations. http://www.fia.com/.


_________________
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2014 Great Lakes PTC Champion
2012 Great Lakes TTF Champion


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2016 6:17 am 
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Thanks for the info! My next question was going to be about the T-tops. I was planning on bringing a couple sets of arm restraints just in case.

As for the off brand seat, I'm hoping I should be ok. It's a very solid seat for a two piece.

A couple of more questions.

According to the CCR I would need seat back braces for a non FIA seat?
That would throw a monkey wrench in to the whole thing. There is no way I could use a brace on the framed seat. If this is the case I'll have to get a new seat and side mount brackets for the passenger side.

The second question is about harness mounting.
I'm using eyebolts and backing plates/washers everywhere except the outboard side. There I found that the stock shoulder bolt and location was the most solid way to mount it. Do you think this will pass?

I'm starting to think my best bet would be to duplicate the seat setup I have on the drivers side for the passenger.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2016 10:26 am 
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Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 2:09 pm
Posts: 771
Location: Northern, Va
While it may seem counter-intuitive, race seats aren't always safer. Fixed back race seats are part of a suite of safety devices that work together. A fixed back seat without a full 5/6 point harness is less safe than the OEM seat. Without at least a 4 point bar, it's far less safe. Improperly mounted seats and belts are even more trouble.

Unless you are going with the whole system, it's pointless to start. I recommend as a way to help you stay in the seat folks use a CG Lock Seatbelt Stabilizer to help keep your rear into the seat. Otherwise, do it all and do it right.

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05 GTS2 99 M3
05 PTE - Honda Accord LX - SOLD
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