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Which way are you leaning?
Stay in st3 67%  67%  [ 6 ]
Move up to st2 33%  33%  [ 3 ]
Stew over it until March :) 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Total votes : 9
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 Post subject: St3 competitors
PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2015 10:28 am 
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How do the new rules effect your classification? There are a couple of us that really want to stick with st3 but the work to take advantage of the new ratio and the average hp calculation is the same cost (for the most part) to build upto the st2 ratio. I was curious to see what the Great Lakes/Midwest contegency looks to do as the feild for St2 this past year was a little anemic. Perhaps the opinion of the masses could help sway the car counts for one vs the other...... because let's face it racing your self is only exciting for so long.

What say the masses?

Ryan


Last edited by moremazda on Sat Nov 21, 2015 10:39 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: St3 competitors
PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2015 10:37 am 
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I'll put my opinion seperate from the question;

I need to go forced induction to get either power level. My plan is to build two maps, one for each class. Im leaning towards st2 because from the out side looking in, i think that may be the cheapest easiest route for the majority of the st3 people. But if that is not the case I would certainly prefer to stay in st3...... less power less money and all that.

Ryan


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 Post subject: Re: St3 competitors
PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2015 11:30 am 
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Well my dilemma is as such. Do I build down a current LS1 motor to continue running in ST3 or build the car up to running in ST2 and have the possibility of the rules set being altered there next season and pretty much make me undo what I have done this season. Or the other option is not race at all until NASA can quit playing with the rule set for the ST/SU/TT group. Unlike Ryan I cannot tune my car for either ST 2 or 3 group on a given weekend without adding in gobs of weight to my car.

My first thought is stay in ST3. This is after all suppose to be budget racing of sorts. This allows me to not run aero on the car other then what Porsche did which is pretty much zip. It also allows me to run my motor at good point to where it is basically is how GM designed it to be. I'd really rather not build the car up to a rule set that will most certainly be altered to some extent next year.

As Ryan has stated racing by oneself is not much fun!

My .02 for whatever it's worth.

BTW between conversations with the MW ST3 guys we are wondering why the rule set is being played with in the first place. How many people think they are being outrun on just HP?


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 Post subject: Re: St3 competitors
PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2015 7:54 pm 
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Location: Sterling, IL
I am definitely stuck in the middle under the new rules. I have no power accessories on the car, and the car gets hard to drive as I add weight. Running skinny tires to make it work (as I did last year) gets harder as the car gets heavier as well. No go on a 3,300lb + porker with manual brakes for me. I would also be running up over the ballast limit. Giving up aero only nets me about 12 HP, and certainly is not the fast way around. I could probably make it work with a serious restrictor plate, but that takes some fun out of the whole effort to swap the V8 in to begin with. Also, my intake setup makes it a huge PIA to change a restrictor plate (can't get at the bolts w/o taking of the intake manifold), so I'd also likely to swap to and e-throttle to make it work.

To make real ST2 power would require a cam swap and a retune, but in the end is essentially a wash for me cost wise, and I'd end up with a car that is much easier to drive (lighter). It also pains me to spend money to go slower :( .

So I'm leaning towards ST2. If I'm under a little on power it looks like next year would fix that.

Ray, the aero penalty in ST3 is so minimal as to almost be a moot point. I'd love it if it were different (1 point plus), but that's not how it is. Once others start inevitably running aero, you won't be able to compete.

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Eric Kuhns#99

Great Lakes ST Director

ST2/3 FrankenFortyFour


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 Post subject: Re: St3 competitors
PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2015 8:10 pm 
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http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/engines-drivetrain/1104gmhtp-ls1-camshaft-dyno-test/

Interesting. This is the exact motor Ray & I have - a 5.7 LS1 with 241 heads and an LS6 intake. The smallest cam in the test makes 45 more HP, and a cam swap in an LS1 is only slightly harder than changing oil. GM even built in provisions to hold up the lifters, so you don't have to take the heads off to do so.

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Eric Kuhns#99

Great Lakes ST Director

ST2/3 FrankenFortyFour


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 Post subject: Re: St3 competitors
PostPosted: Mon Nov 23, 2015 7:40 am 
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Eric,
That was a rather interesting article. Impressive numbers from a stock LS1. Granted some of the camshafts in the article are way better suited for drag racing. But I know you we're just talking about the first one in the test.

I know the penalty for aero is minimal. As you stated last year after effectively removing the front splitter from your car that you'd rather not run it.

I have no idea what to do at this point. Hopefully they will have rules out as soon as possible, so I can make a decision as to which way to build.


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 Post subject: Re: St3 competitors
PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2015 3:24 pm 
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Those numbers were from an engine dyno (which you know, I'm sure). They estimated a baseline ~350 RWHP, which correlates well with my current motor. If I go the cam route it will be pretty mild for durability. Maybe the first cam in the article, or GM's ASA cam (long duration, modest valve lift).

I'd love to be able to run w/o the hassle of aero, but I (we) are in the minority, apparently, so I run some, though I know there's still a lot on the table. Bigger/better wing, diffuser, flat bottom, canards, etc. I'll work on it over time.

Where's everybody else? What about the TT guys - who is going where?

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Eric Kuhns#99

Great Lakes ST Director

ST2/3 FrankenFortyFour


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 Post subject: Re: St3 competitors
PostPosted: Sat Nov 28, 2015 9:46 am 
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Being regulated to the (way) back of ST3 this season I actually like the 10:1 as I will be much closer to that target without having to go turbo. I don't want to build the car to be far more capable then I will ever be so sticking to ST3 still gives me a bump forward in terms of a competitive car while still allowing me to learn a lot. So I will be aiming for 10:1 under the assumption I have aero and that the rotary +.3 is void even though aero won't likely appear until 2017.


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 Post subject: Re: St3 competitors
PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2015 10:55 am 
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Well, I'm all in now. Bought a cam for the LS1. Should easily make ST2 power now :-).
We only have a few responses, and the poll didn't quite seem to match the replies, so in the end looked close to 50/50.
I had to spend money either way, and this only cost me about $10/HP - love my LS motor!

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Eric Kuhns#99

Great Lakes ST Director

ST2/3 FrankenFortyFour


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 Post subject: Re: St3 competitors
PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2015 3:11 pm 
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Don't forget to upgrade the springs, if necessary, and measure in case you need different pushrod lengths.


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